He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". (v.23). And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. Mark 9:45. I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another. It doesn't matter what we think! It says it is "not quenched". The references to fire in Is 31.9 and Is 33.14 envisioned Yahweh's power as bringing vengeance on Israel's oppressors (Is 33.10 - 12) rather than a fire . One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. And why should it? What has that got to do with it. if you use the NIV version of the Bible the words "and shut out" are not in the Greek, rather just the preposition "from"). In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. And why should it? As for Isaiah 66:24, it cannot be referring to eternity, as v.23 which is in the same context states that "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another all flesh shall to worship before Me, says the Lord." In any case, we will provide honest advice. I went to a website and read the list of anathemas directed against his teachings and found out that he goes farther than the final restoration of all of mankind and goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? But no matter what they eat, do not die, THEY LEAVE WHAT THEY ARE EATING TO BECOME A FLY OR MOTH. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. Ezekiel doesn't utter any either and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. to fully consume all things dumped there. Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). That little valley is a likely spot. The chastisement is in reference to the Second Death, which can't be eternal if we are to take any of the passages about death itself being destroyed literally. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Why consider them 'saints'? After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. Blot them out of existence? How does this work? There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. (66:5) If these bodies in Gehenna are meant to typify being in "hell" why would anyone want to go look at them? "Worms" in Isaiah 66:24 is towlah, and Gesenius notes that this word is especially used to denote worms that feed on FLESH, although it is also used to talk about worms in bread and the worm that killed Jonah's shade plant. Gehenna - The Prophetic Garbage Dump. Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. [Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. Why were heretics (if you believe that universal salvation is heresy)allowed to do this? Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. Punishment of this type is eternal. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. God is much more forgiving than that. That the valley was just outside the city of Jerusalem made it an appropriate symbol for those excluded from divine blessing. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). . Saying "God is eternal" is chickening out. Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". The earliest explicit reference to the valley as a garbage dump is from the twelfth century AD, but circumstantial evidence in Jeremiah suggests this probably was true even in his time. This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? During Jesus' time, it was the city's garbage burner. So no "this verse could be left out" reasoning. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna - garbage dump) fire.29) And if thy right eye . Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". But I doubt that it was "never condemned", it certainly was in Origen's case. That did not happen. The move is part of its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for US$1.81bn. Gregory Nazianzen and Gregory of Nyssa, both staunch universalists, recognized by the eastern and western churchs as 'saints', played prominent roles at the council of Nicea. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources. Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. In Isaiah 30:33, it is referred to as Topheth, a horrible, fearsome place: "Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream . . "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". Who said it was a statement of limitation when did your "statement of fact" become a "statement of limitation"? Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/, Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. If it was clearly taught in scripture, why was no council convened to condemn the heresy of universal salvation as soon as it came on the scene? 1:7 where it says Jesus will be revealed from heaven in "blazing fire" and those who do not know God will be eternally destroyed by the fire of his presence, like how Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire (p.s. Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. But you making another mistake: so seem to think that if Jude and Ezekiel contradicted each other, such a contradiction could be solved by your screwed universalist theology. As Dale Allison puts it, "without ancient support." The three layers of Hades were called glooms for good reason; they were realms devoid of emotion, hope, and peace. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. Of hhe three valleys below Jerusalem, Hinnom lies dead center below the Old City and temple. If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. Gehenna is the Greek version of the biblical word Gehinnom or Gei Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom Joshua 15:8). The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. What church are you talking about? We can trace the develope a transition of the place of the dead from a pit to a water filled pit and then to similar with fire. But that doesn't meant that only the "devil gets saved in the end" was condemned. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. Kent thank you for your comment. He is the creator that loves his creation so much that he gave his only Son who was the only sacrifice Holy enough for the sins of mankind who defeated death that we may have the hope of everlasting life! It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. The three offenses are being angry without a cause, calling someone 'raca', and calling someone 'fool'. I like how you responded to the (?I guess they are unbelievers) in the comments. Who is ignoring the context? And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. Rome? But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. I am talking about the entire early Church, which did not adhere to your universal salvation theology. Gey Ben Hinnom Stream. Nice work. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail. And, Christ's wonderful promise into banality? The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. Why is there this belief that there is no redemption? Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. A Christian in error is still a Christian.]. Gehenna Gehenna is the plane of suspicion and greed. Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. It does not need to be quenched. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. Students may use the material on this site for school projects without permission. Yesterday Louis McBride raised the issue (HT: BibleX). Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. be anathema!) I can use the common meaning of words in scripture. The planned facility closures, along with a marketing office, could likely lead to the loss of 88 jobs, said a spokesperson. He does not tell us where he got that information from and that is all we hear of it. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. The repeated tradition that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump with fires that never ceased burning is in question. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. In v.15-16 it seems pretty clear the context of this passage is a universal judgment on all flesh. Though I vehemently disagree with you, I do not think your view stems from bad motives. It can't. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". Maybe you guys think you are as smart as our all knowing all seeing creator. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. And as you know from experience, a dump without flies is a dump without garbage. As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. One is that the age-during is modified by what it refers to. "What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one.". People also ignore the context of what Jesus is talking about. If ALL will be made alive than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light of that fact. 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